🎙️ AMA: From Rippple to Trakt

[kcador (Kevin Cador)]

@SnowyBoy

I’d be invoicing in advance or asking for payment up front for your services mate, you come in at time of conflict to say the least, it appears you’re also dealing with people with questionable ethics, best of luck on your new journey, ( I hope you don’t need it), the " TRACK" record is not real positive though. Your enthusiasm is admirable and I hope you can maintain it.

Thank you!

[kcador (Kevin Cador)]

@kraftynic

Whether or not you use it, your Trakt VIP still funds it.

No.

@kraftynic

if it was guaranteed Trakt systems and features only, and not pay a penny towards funding external parties.

So, no external ratings, no where to watch information, no third party API I guess? You want a Trakt that is closed down on itself… this, I think, is not going to happen. Openness is part of Trakt’s DNA.

@kraftynic

Semantics

Nope!

[TopCat]

@kcador

with no PR specialist or big Marketing team

That I can see from a mile away. If you had someone with even the tiniest bit of experience in PR, you’d not be in the situation you are right now, Kevin.

I have done damage control PR for some pretty big whoopsies in my career so far, but this whole turn of events is just baffling to see on so many levels. Even for someone like me, who deals with such crisis on a regular basis.

Look, the gaslighting from the team has got to stop. It’s been going on for far too long, well before this current mess took place. People feel hurt and deceived, and, may I say, most of them rightfully so. You say it takes time for someone to reply, because you’re a small team… Justin has had time to post updates on other matters on the forum completely BYPASSING and IGNORING almost every single thread on the matter at hand - which in itself is extremely frustrating.

Even you, a pretty level headed guy, have obviously started growing impatient with some of your replies here. And it shows, trust me. You may not want to come of as hostile or ignorant, which I in no way believe you are, but some of the communication here has clearly rubbed you the wrong way. And we can all see it.

Yes, Trakt does not have a PR person, and it shows. But maybe it’s time to get one.

[kcador (Kevin Cador)]

@iDavide94

Okay… these apps aren’t being funded with my VIP subscription money, the revenue is just being “shared” — conveniently enough — from my VIP subscription

There is a referral system in place. It’s not magic. Not your subscription if you don’t use them.
“Okay… these apps aren’t being funded with my VIP subscription money.” → yes!

@iDavide94

From a user’s perspective, call it whatever you like, but the perception stays the same: my money isn’t going to Trakt, it’s going to third parties outside of Trakt. And that feels like a waste of money, especially when those funds could — and should — be used to address many other important shortcomings. If that waste comes right after a price doubling, it only makes things worse.

We are going to address this perception problem, yes! But you need to hear me out, your Trakt VIP won’t fund me in any way if you are not using my app.

@iDavide94

If I want to use a third-party client, I’ll pay for it myself — if I choose to. Trakt shouldn’t be “sharing” my money with external developers.

If you have a Trakt VIP subscription, you get an app for free. What’s not to like about that?
If you don’t have a Trakt VIP subscription, you can pay for the app directly. Because the third-party apps are not funded by Trakt.
If you want to use Trakt and the app for free, you can do it (with limits).

@iDavide94

Take the Prime Video example: Amazon would never share my subscription fee with third parties, especially not after doubling it, just to add third-party content to their platform. If I want third-party content on their service, I add it myself and pay for it separately.

Yes, Amazon would never do it. And that, for me is what makes Trakt different. Trakt has always been “open” to third-party apps and services via their Public API. Now, to be able empower developers and users of those apps, we came up with the Partner Program, which is just a better version of the Public API with a revenue sharing model (for VIP that use their apps).

@iDavide94

There’s clearly a conflict of interest in your responses: you benefit both as a Trakt employee and as a third-party developer through this new “revenue sharing” program. I completely understand that, but it’s also clear that you’re not seeing things from a user’s point of view — because even when you call it “sharing,” it still feels like a waste of money that reduces the value of the service.

We are talking to other developers that will benefit from the same Program. I’m as transparent with my users as I am here and I can only tell you that they are not seeing it like this.

@iDavide94

I hope I’ve made my point clearer.

You are clear! There’s just a misunderstanding on some things and that’s okay because you don’t have all the information I have. That’s why I’m sharing what I can.

[SuperDave10 (SuperDave)]

@kcador I see that you are getting into the redefinition game so maybe you and Trakt are made for each other. I have for over 30 years developed and maintained an accounting app that includes invoicing and payroll. Tiered pricing would be trivial.

As @snowyboy said, I hope that you are getting your money up front before @justin, @marius et al decide to redefine your employment.

[kcador (Kevin Cador)]

@kraftynic

@kcador

Funding means Trakt would use your money for something you are not interested in.

Exactly the point many are making!

My point was on the third-party funding, which is not a thing. There’s a perception your money goes to fund things you are not interested in. This is not what is happening.
Of course a part your subscription pays for things you don’t use but this is the game of any business/service/product. As I said earlier, I would prefer to focus on how we can increase your perceived value.

[kcador (Kevin Cador)]

@kraftynic

In that case those NOT using it should be charged a lesser subscription (it’ll be more than 20¢ since a VIP with Rippple is $9).

This is not how it works since Trakt and your VIP subscriptions are not funding the app. Why would you pay less?

@kraftynic

So $9 a year to Rippple from a subscription and likely $20-30 for Younify, comes to roughly $30-$40 dollars.

This is not how it works: you base your pricing on the fact that any Trakt VIP is not paying for Rippple and Younify entirely and only. That’s just: no (again)!

@kraftynic

Why should those not using the third parties have to still pay the same rate? That’s why I keep banging on about tiers, to make the system fairer and more accessible to a wider range of people.

Some users do not care about comments, some users do not rate anything, some do not look at ratings, some do not use where to watch, some do not list anything, some do not favorite anything, some scrobble, some don’t, ever, some like stuff, some add actors to their lists, some care a lot about actors, some don’t,… and the list goes on.
The perfect tiering does not exist and you will eventually “pay” some things you do not use and we will have the same conversation.

[kcador (Kevin Cador)]

@kraftynic

I think it might be the other way round - if a Trakt VIP user signs up for the third party app, then the app gets money. I could be wrong though.

That’s right!

@kraftynic

But I think for Younify at least, there’ll be money going to them regardless as it’s a pretty expensive service and to cover the costs from just those using it would be pretty difficult.

I’m not sure about this one tbh. I’ll see if we can share more about this, maybe not but at. least know that your worry has been heard!

[kcador (Kevin Cador)]

@terryapodaca

So wait, is Rippple now free for Trakt VIP members? Or would I still have to pay $9 for it?

Free for all existing and new Trakt VIP members, yes!
I only get “a cut” if new users come via the referral link.
You can still pay for Rippple directly (see it as a tip the dev) with or without Trakt VIP.
I (still) think it is a win-win-win situation

[kcador (Kevin Cador)]

@jmxd

Listen, i’m happy for you. I actually used Serist for a long time before Trakt had its own app, it was a great app. But a “Product Management” role on Trakt is ridiculous. And so is believing in “Trakt’s mission”.

Seeing this whole thread, I can only disagree with you. But I’m biased obviously, I just hope Justin is not reading you

@jmxd

This is a simple website for selecting if you watched something yes or no

This is an over-simplification. And, if so, you can do it on the free plan.

@jmxd

using mostly data from Tmdb

Again, this is an over simplification. We enrich a lot and have community features that gives us our very now data. Also, TMDb is awesome (I’m also using their API) but why Trakt exists then?

@jmxd

The owners of this website have gotten complete delusions of grandeur recently. This website does not need 20 staff members and definitely doesn’t need a $60 subscription for selecting if you watched something (which btw is a larger price than a yearly subscription to one of the streaming platforms where you can actually watch the content)

I see Justin and Sean as down-to-earth as ever but I get your perception due to pricing and the fact you seem to only use and need the free experience.
We are not 20, the team has grown but not that much.
Again, if 60$ is too much for your usage (simple tracking), the free tier seems adapted.

[kcador (Kevin Cador)]

@Skick3

The majority of Trakt users simply want to track their viewed content and possibly maintain lists.

You can track for free.
Lists are behind the subscription but you said possibly.

@Skick3

I also don’t understand why they don’t offer a VIP Lite for another $30.

We heard you and so far, the number of features provided by Trakt + the number of user with highly specific use cases = doesn’t work.
I promise you, we’ll have the same conversation about VIP Lite being too restrictive and VIP being too expensive.

@Skick3

All the discussions for weeks have been saying that lists are important for users.
Instead, Trakt users are running away to the ugly competitor Simkl, for example. The users who regularly brought in $15 or $30 a year are falling away. Less revenue and lists that VIP users kept up to date for the community will also become inactive. Which in turn makes Trakt less attractive to the competition.
With a restriction of 100 contents in a list and a maximum of 8 lists, you won’t keep any free users.
The result is less revenue because I haven’t read anyone who wants to keep paying $60 for Trakt.
And if you read that the $60 is necessary, then I really wonder why you don’t do a limited VIP model to keep the users, because you can add so many great features to VIP. $60 will not pay for it.

A lot of this is making a lot of assumptions. But I hear you: lists are important, price is too high, competitors do it differently.
Time will tell (for the most part).

@Skick3

The main focus of most users is tracking and maintaining lists. Everything else are goodies and should be offered as an add-on for money.

But then who is going to pay? Don’t get me wrong, I get your point, I’m teasing you a bit

[pauls67 (Paul)]

Are there any plans to make the services/apps in the partner program available to all, instead of just selected os’s/countries

eg

Is Ripple coming to Android, so more people can benefit from it?

Unify, one of the big issues with auto scrobbling from sites is that the item has to be available to US streamers, do you know of any plans to make Unify available to all and not just US customers, so we can all benefit with country specific items

[kcador (Kevin Cador)]

@kraftynic

Reasons? It was just wiffle waffle about infrastructure which could mean anything (salaries, helping fund - excuse me, revenue share - external parties -, all these extra employees - I mean talk about excessive)! It’s certainly not because they’ve added extra features that users actually requested.

I’ll just say this: there is a limit between transparency and opening our books and business for everyone to see

@kraftynic

And STILL didn’t follow them properly by emailing all affected users of the changed date and giving 30 days notice as of the change.

Doesn’t change the fact that “it wasn’t the intention and Justin communicated about it”.

@kraftynic

Prime, etc up their prices at reasonable levels, NOT doubling fees overnight with nothing to show for it.

On what time scale, also, you are taking Prime as an example when Amazon is behind it with a lot more businesses to “fund” their streaming service. Take Netflix and Disney+ on a 15 year timescale.

@kraftynic

What an ignorant reply. You’d make a great politian with your ability to serve actually answering as to why it would be so difficult. Tiered wouldn’t be any harder than creating Trakt Lite (which no one asked for, by the way). Like I’ve said before, many services have managed to provide it, so is Trakt just incompetent or greedy?

What is ignorant about it?
I’ve answered why it would be so difficult many times.
You don’t know how much time it would take, I’d I’m not even debating that, I’m debating the actual tiering that would be different for every Trakt user of the forum.
You don’t know how much time Trakt LITE took to develop and comparing an exploratory and a playground for innovation as an additional front-end for Trakt services to pricing and tiering.
And how many services failed to do it properly? And what kind of services are we talking about?

[kcador (Kevin Cador)]

@WereCatf

That’s the rub: I literally can’t think of anything I’d want that Trakt doesn’t already do. That’s why I can’t justify the increase from $30 to $60 and canceled – I wouldn’t be getting anything in return for paying more.

But you’ll stay as a free user?

[kcador (Kevin Cador)]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying

[WereCatf]

Good question, but probably not. As non-VIP, I’ll lose access to advanced filtering and without that I can just replace Trakt with one of several self-hosted options.

It’s the advanced filtering which is the most useful function for me as I like to keep track of upcoming stuff that I may want to watch when it’s available. I’m not aware of any self-hosted option offering that in as practical form. Tracking of what I’ve watched and what rating I give them, on the other hand, is available.

[kcador (Kevin Cador)]

How so? I’m not sure if this is a hint for me to stop.

[kcador (Kevin Cador)]

Not trying to redefine anything. Just answering honestly and transparently. Sometimes trying to open another type of conversation. Sometimes failing (I guess).

[kcador (Kevin Cador)]

Please share the contradictions. I’ll lear from it.

[Skick3 (Stephen McFox)]

@WereCatf

Good question, but probably not. As non-VIP, I’ll lose access to advanced filtering and without that I can just replace Trakt with one of several self-hosted options.

It’s the advanced filtering which is the most useful function for me as I like to keep track of upcoming stuff that I may want to watch when it’s available. I’m not aware of any self-hosted option offering that in as practical form. Tracking of what I’ve watched and what rating I give them, on the other hand, is available.

That’s right, tracking is free. So it’s all the worse that I have to pay $60 instead of $30 for list maintenance and filtering.
Yes, time will tell, but many will think the same and cancel their VIP access. I very much doubt whether trakt will really earn any more from the few $60 customers in the end.