🎙️ AMA: From Rippple to Trakt

[BlueTyFighter]

Maybe I’m misreading what Kevin is saying, but from the way I’m reading it, the partner program is like a referral program. The third party app developer only gets part of the Trakt VIP revenue if the user signs up for Trakt VIP in the third party app (if the user signs up on the Trakt website or Trakt app, third party apps do not get any part of that revenue). If that’s the case, then I have no problem with that. Lots of companies offer referral programs like that to help encourage third party companies/developers to grow the core business and also get a cut of that profit for their help. But if a cut of all VIP users revenue, regardless where they signed up, go to third party apps, I also strongly disagree with that for the many reasons others have listed above.

[trkthc001]

iDavide94Davide I’m not sure why you are so angry. If you have been paying $15 a year, you’ve got your moneys worth. You act like you’ve given Trak $100 out of the goodness of your heart.

but money from everyone — including mine. And that money should be used to improve the core service, not to fund third-party apps.

that money you paid was for a service you’ve used. You have no place to make business decisions for Trakt as a company. Trakt have been very generous to allow users to keep paying so little. And $15/y isn’t going to do anything. How often do you use the service or use the forums? that alone will cost at least $10 probably so you gave $5 for Trakt to

but money from everyone — including mine. And that money should be used to improve the core service, not to fund third-party apps.

so you paid for one cup of coffee a year and think you have the right to demand the decisions Trakt make? Grow up. If you don’t want to pay for the service then don’t. I personally don’t think Trakt is worth it for me for $60. But I rather Trakt keep growing and one day I might think it’s worth it and come back.

If you still not happy why don’t you go and create your own company and charge $15/y and see how far you’ll get.

[otakunet21]

free for trakt vip members

this shows all the ways you can pay for rippple

[jmxd (Jamie)]

Listen, i’m happy for you. I actually used Serist for a long time before Trakt had it’s own app, it was a great app. But a “Product Management” role on Trakt is ridiculous. And so is believing in “Trakt’s mission”.

This is a simple website for selecting if you watched something yes or no, using mostly data from Tmdb. The owners of this website have gotten complete delusions of grandeur recently. This website does not need 20 staff members and definitely doesn’t need a $60 subscription for selecting if you watched something (which btw is a larger price than a yearly subscription to one of the streaming platforms where you can actually watch the content)

[neilcgardner]

@jmxd

This is a simple website for selecting if you watched something yes or no, …

That is how it started out, and many still use it in that simplified way, but it has expanded way beyond that. That is part of the issue I guess - those that only use it as a simple tracker see less value in it than those that use it for much more than that.

For me it has become the central hub of all my viewing through our Apple TVs - it is the only option available for how we as a family manage our viewing, and from a ‘quality of life’ perspective and ‘ease of use’ for anyone using the entertainment ecosystem I have built, has significant value to our household. It’s all about perspective, and how individuals use the broader set of features offered. A year ago Trakt had limited value to me, but now it is key to my ecosystem.

[jmxd (Jamie)]

I get what you’re saying, but if you think about it is that really because of what Trakt offers or is it your ecosystem which just so happens to use Trakt for some part of it (like using your own media automation to import movies and shows from a list on Trakt)

I have a pretty elaborate media automation setup myself, and Trakt does have a role in this but it is minor and not something that can’t be just as easily drop-in replaced by an alternative. It’s just because i’ve used Trakt for so many years that it’s what i’m using.

I agree that Trakt has more features than selecting what you’ve watched, and overall does those things well, but the core function of this website is very simple and does not needs an entire team of staff members that users are now being asked to pay for.

[neilcgardner]

@jmxd

… but if you think about it is that really because of what Trakt offers or is it your ecosystem which just so happens to use Trakt …

I have a pretty elaborate media automation setup myself, and Trakt does have a role in this but it is minor and not something that can’t be just as easily drop-in replaced by an alternative …

My ecosystem has built over many years, and evolved to the point where it’s pretty much ideal now. I long struggled to find the final piece though - the central hub through which everything could be manged in a fully integrated way on tvOS.

I’d used Trakt for a long time, but only as a tracker - the introduction of the tvOS app finally provided the missing piece that allowed for the completion of my system. One that was simple and intuitive to operate for anyone using it - where they switch on, and everything is presented to them in one app, and will ‘play’ it automatically (no thinking about it, switching to another app, fiddling, etc)

I’ve been through Reelgood, WatchAid, JustWatch, Plex, Kodi, etc, etc but none ‘unified’ the experience. They all missed some important part of the integration I needed, were clumsy to use or poorly supported. All resulted in a visibly hybrid system, that required frequent app switching. Trakt now pretty much eliminates that for me. There is no alternative for me, to achieve what I want.

Yes, this is because of my specific use case, but I suspect many people who build their viewing around tvOS would welcome the same experience.

[kcador (Kevin)]

@ImpaktNY48

This means the price increase has everything to do with the Partner Program. The increased the price to enable the Partner Program and you to come in.

This is not true. There was a price increase and then changes happened. One is not a consequence of the other other than the fact that Trakt is a service that lives and makes changes in terms of features, infrastructure, partnership, team,… you want to see a link between the two but there’s not.

@ImpaktNY48

I agree tbh. Like this is weird. I’m not paying for Kevin Cador or anyone else’s app. I am paying for Justin Nemeth’s website and official apps.

This is not true, you are not paying for any third party apps if you are not using them in the first place!

@ImpaktNY48

Yup. This Partner Program is not a good reason for a price increase on everyone.

This is not the case.

@ImpaktNY48

So how are you made whole by the loss of any Premium subscribers who are also VIP subscribers?

That’s how referral links works. I get something, you get something, Trakt gets something.

@ImpaktNY48

And there it is. This is a distinction without a difference. The revenue that is shared is used to fund development.

I mean, yeah! Like the Public API has been helping me build an app for 7+ years and my model has always been based on freemium. Funding has nothing to do with revenue sharing in the sense you are using it. Trakt does not fund apps. Trakt shares additional revenue apps are helping getting in the first place.

@ImpaktNY48

You seem cool but other than you I don’t know that. I truly don’t. Little communication after promising more, backtracking on promises, no awareness of their own T&C, etc does not demonstrate this.

That’s okay, I’m just getting introduced here and trust will take time to rebuild.

@ImpaktNY48

Not easy is not an excuse for not trying at all and it would have led to significantly less frustration.

From the past year with all this pricing drama it’s become pretty clear that the main use case a lot of people have for Trakt are lists and filtering. Having a tier that covers that would satisfy a lot of people.

Noted!

@ImpaktNY48

The other other solution is to actually have these features ready and to not make promises after breaking a big one.

Can’t go back on this one. You all feel we introduced the wrong things at the same time we introduced price (and all) changes, and that is a valid feeling. We can’t just go back in time. We have a lot of things cooking. Only time will tell.

@ImpaktNY48

You can’t be serious. Yeah, he said what he said then months later what he said became not true out of nowhere. How is that not dishonesty?

I said “at the time” and “things changed”. I know Justin wasn’t dishonest when he said what he said. There are reasons in the official communication. I understand how this can feel dishonest on the month scale but I am serious when I say what I said, yes.

@ImpaktNY48

And you actually didn’t answer on the grandfathering. You just said it happened and moved on.

What is your question about the grandfathering?

[kcador (Kevin)]

@kraftynic

It takes time to reply?

Yes!

@kraftynic

So this long from the current disruption is how long for the team to address even one member in the various pricing posts?

We are still looking at the impact of all the changes we are making.

@kraftynic

They tried to break their own T&C’s, for crying out loud!

It wasn’t the intention and Justin communicated about it.

@kraftynic

Could you imagine if Prime suddenly quadrupled (or more, I see Trakt upping it again very soon) what they charged you and said “but we’re giving you a bunch of extra channels (they have 100+ bolt on channels) you don’t really want”?

Could you imagine Prime grandfathering prices for over a decade? Could you imagine Netflix upping their price several times a year? Could you imagine Disney+ adding a bunch of sub-catalogue to their streaming offering you are never going to watch?

[kcador (Kevin)]

@SuperDave10

Tiered pricing is NOT that dificult for a reasonably competent programer. Just reading this I can think of 3 fairly easy solutions. It was sugested that the different pricing for the different grandfathering was SO difficult. BS. Again a competent programer could handle that in their sleep.

Do you know Trakt LITE is open source? Maybe you (or the developer you know who could handle the whole pricing and tiering in his sleep) can submit a PR to make Trakt 10x better?

[kcador (Kevin)]

Thanks a lot for your message

@otakunet21

How did you get into app development in the first place and what made you start with your tracking apps like Rippple?

Great question! I started developing in BASIC with my uncle (who was the one person helping me build a PC when I was around 13 to be able to play games). My uncle “forced” me to learn a bit of programming because “that’s what computers are for”. This lead me a Computer Science degree. The summer I graduated, Apple announced the iPhone SDK and a friend (who was also an Apple fan-boy) told me the company where he did is thesis was hiring a student to take a look at this Apple SDK. I created my first app with Objective-C, knowing only C and Java at the time, that summer. I then worked for 9 month for a big corp doing Enterprise Java stuff and I hated that so much that I started looking at other jobs and found this small (1 dev, 3 founders) company that was running an SMS business. I was their first “mobile app developer” and I ended up building a new company from the ground up with one of the co-founders. I did that for 10 years, creating apps for others being sometimes a Product Manager, sometimes a mini-CTO, sometimes the developer. At one point, we decided, with my last team, to develop apps for ourselves and that’s how MOVIST is born. SERIST came to life not long after. Then the company had to close down and I started building Rippple as a way to complement SERIST and MOVIST. Rippple outgrew them. Now I’m here

[kcador (Kevin)]

@WereCatf

Eh, so far I am not hearing anything that’d make me trust Trakt again or want to sign up for VIP at twice the price I paid previously when I have no use for any new features.

What new feature would tho?

[kcador (Kevin)]

@stutger

Congrats on joining the Trakt crew! I hope you get to contribute in making the service better (and perhaps even address some of the grievances of late )

Thank you! Trying, yes!

@stutger

I’m one of the few who really enjoy Trakt Lite and it’s simplicity and I would love to see it bit more regular updates on it’s development.

Not that few All planned! Thanks for that!

@stutger

That’s all for me, wish u the best of luck at Trakt!

Again, thank you!

[WereCatf]

That’s the rub: I literally can’t think of anything I’d want that Trakt doesn’t already do. That’s why I can’t justify the increase from $30 to $60 and canceled – I wouldn’t be getting anything in return for paying more.

[kcador (Kevin)]

@kraftynic

Of course it is or Trakt wouldn’t be in the mess it is now. Many suggestion were given when they clamped down on free features, not one was listened to or acted on, they just went their own sweet merry way regardless of consequence.

What mess? I’m kidding! It is a perception mess from the outside for the moment. We’ve been over it but:

• Trakt is not in a mess
• some changes take time to learn from
• some changes take time to cook
• we are a small team with no PR specialist or big Marketing team
• we listened, we can’t communicate now because we’re not ready to

@kraftynic

That comment wasn’t aimed at you, however it seems true. If you want basic Trakt features like the free had (more lists, larger lists) but took away to try and force more VIP sign ups, then you HAVE to take everything. And of course they fund these 3rd party applications! Younify must cost them a fortune (even though it seems crap and barely works right), but why should all VIPs shoulder the burden rather than just those that use it? You yourself are getting kickback through “revenue sharing” as you called it - ie funding.

Trakt is still usable as a free user, if you want more, there’s the VIP plan. You could even use Rippple or any other third-party app that does give you more.
Younify is not a third-party in the same way, it is an integration and a provider, just like JustWatch.
I only get the kickback through “revenue sharing” if people use my app, so, not the same.
(Sorry, but on this subject, I will answer you exactly the same each time because it is how it is.)

@kraftynic

Hear us? Trakt is deaf eared. And perhaps defend is too strong a word, but an HONEST explanation should be a must, not a post so full of nonsense about infrastructure doubling in the last year - Younify did that. Not a post promising new features that never come to pass, and if they do add features it’s never from feature requests, always what TRAKT wants not it USERS. And definitely apologise when promises are broken.

You don’t have the information needed to claim that. Our infrastructure costs are increasing due to multiple factors, Younify is not responsible of that.
I do’t think it’s true, maybe you feel that way but some users asked for the “Drop” feature, some users are happy with LITE and the tvOS app and what is to come.

@kraftynic

Course they are, always hiding behind something or someone, never out in the front

Not hiding… empowering, supportive and cheering for me so far!

[kcador (Kevin)]

@SnowyBoy

I’d be invoicing in advance or asking for payment up front for your services mate, you come in at time of conflict to say the least, it appears you’re also dealing with people with questionable ethics, best of luck on your new journey, ( I hope you don’t need it), the " TRACK" record is not real positive though. Your enthusiasm is admirable and I hope you can maintain it.

Thank you!

[kcador (Kevin)]

@kraftynic

Whether or not you use it, your Trakt VIP still funds it.

No.

@kraftynic

if it was guaranteed Trakt systems and features only, and not pay a penny towards funding external parties.

So, no external ratings, no where to watch information, no third party API I guess? You want a Trakt that is closed down on itself… this, I think, is not going to happen. Openness is part of Trakt’s DNA.

@kraftynic

Semantics

Nope!

[kcador (Kevin)]

@iDavide94

Okay… these apps aren’t being funded with my VIP subscription money, the revenue is just being “shared” — conveniently enough — from my VIP subscription

There is a referral system in place. It’s not magic. Not your subscription if you don’t use them.
“Okay… these apps aren’t being funded with my VIP subscription money.” → yes!

@iDavide94

From a user’s perspective, call it whatever you like, but the perception stays the same: my money isn’t going to Trakt, it’s going to third parties outside of Trakt. And that feels like a waste of money, especially when those funds could — and should — be used to address many other important shortcomings. If that waste comes right after a price doubling, it only makes things worse.

We are going to address this perception problem, yes! But you need to hear me out, your Trakt VIP won’t fund me in any way if you are not using my app.

@iDavide94

If I want to use a third-party client, I’ll pay for it myself — if I choose to. Trakt shouldn’t be “sharing” my money with external developers.

If you have a Trakt VIP subscription, you get an app for free. What’s not to like about that?
If you don’t have a Trakt VIP subscription, you can pay for the app directly. Because the third-party apps are not funded by Trakt.
If you want to use Trakt and the app for free, you can do it (with limits).

@iDavide94

Take the Prime Video example: Amazon would never share my subscription fee with third parties, especially not after doubling it, just to add third-party content to their platform. If I want third-party content on their service, I add it myself and pay for it separately.

Yes, Amazon would never do it. And that, for me is what makes Trakt different. Trakt has always been “open” to third-party apps and services via their Public API. Now, to be able empower developers and users of those apps, we came up with the Partner Program, which is just a better version of the Public API with a revenue sharing model (for VIP that use their apps).

@iDavide94

There’s clearly a conflict of interest in your responses: you benefit both as a Trakt employee and as a third-party developer through this new “revenue sharing” program. I completely understand that, but it’s also clear that you’re not seeing things from a user’s point of view — because even when you call it “sharing,” it still feels like a waste of money that reduces the value of the service.

We are talking to other developers that will benefit from the same Program. I’m as transparent with my users as I am here and I can only tell you that they are not seeing it like this.

@iDavide94

I hope I’ve made my point clearer.

You are clear! There’s just a misunderstanding on some things and that’s okay because you don’t have all the information I have. That’s why I’m sharing what I can.

[kcador (Kevin)]

@kraftynic

@kcador

Funding means Trakt would use your money for something you are not interested in.

Exactly the point many are making!

My point was on the third-party funding, which is not a thing. There’s a perception your money goes to fund things you are not interested in. This is not what is happening.
Of course a part your subscription pays for things you don’t use but this is the game of any business/service/product. As I said earlier, I would prefer to focus on how we can increase your perceived value.

[kcador (Kevin)]

@kraftynic

In that case those NOT using it should be charged a lesser subscription (it’ll be more than 20¢ since a VIP with Rippple is $9).

This is not how it works since Trakt and your VIP subscriptions are not funding the app. Why would you pay less?

@kraftynic

So $9 a year to Rippple from a subscription and likely $20-30 for Younify, comes to roughly $30-$40 dollars.

This is not how it works: you base your pricing on the fact that any Trakt VIP is not paying for Rippple and Younify entirely and only. That’s just: no (again)!

@kraftynic

Why should those not using the third parties have to still pay the same rate? That’s why I keep banging on about tiers, to make the system fairer and more accessible to a wider range of people.

Some users do not care about comments, some users do not rate anything, some do not look at ratings, some do not use where to watch, some do not list anything, some do not favorite anything, some scrobble, some don’t, ever, some like stuff, some add actors to their lists, some care a lot about actors, some don’t,… and the list goes on.
The perfect tiering does not exist and you will eventually “pay” some things you do not use and we will have the same conversation.