🎙️ AMA: From Rippple to Trakt

[kcador (Kevin Cador)]

@Silrog

I’m really trying to be fair and I absolutely get why you are excited about making your passion your job. I wish you best of luck and success.

Thank you!

@Silrog

Your Netflix example is actually a good example for another company being at risk to do it wrong.

I get your point and made a same comparison with the Games on another reply. I think it is part of the natural development of a company to explore some things. I’m more into nailing one thing perfectly myself (I’m an Apple fan-boy, sorry, not sorry). Focus/priority is a key takeaway of what you said, thank!

@Silrog

And that’s the same issue with Trakt. I consider exactly one VIP feature essential: Advanced filtering.

Noted!

[kcador (Kevin Cador)]

@videntis

How do you feel about working for a company that shows so much disrespect for its customers?

What disrespect exactly?
I answered on the grandfathering, I know Justin wasn’t dishonest at the time he said what he said. Things just changed.
Maybe increasing the price is disrespectful? Changing the value proposition (limits)?
I have been a user of Trakt for years (VIP) and never felt disrespected but I understand others frustration on some sensitive (price and tiering) subjects.

@videntis

What will you do to fix that?

I can’t answer this here (not that I wouldn’t be into a Ted Talk invite ) but I have a plan and I’ll use my past experiences as a user, as a developer of a Trakt app and as a Product Manager to improve everything that can be improved.

[videntis (Rob)]

@kcador

What disrespect exactly?

Example:

No response from Trakt to any feedback on the price changes / broken promises (but replying to other questions like nothing happened), except by someone called Marius, who did not even have the decency to introduce himself (his role in the company), who was gaslighting customers about what “grandfathering” means.

But I’m sure you’ll find more examples when you follow / read this forum.

[ImpaktNY48]

@kcador

• The price of the Trakt VIP subscriptions have been increased but it has nothing to do with the Trakt API Partner Program or Rippple. It was a business decision made before we even started working on the Partner Program.

This means the price increase has everything to do with the Partner Program. The increased the price to enable the Partner Program and you to come in.

@iDavide94

Why should I be paying to fund the development of both the official app and additional ones?

I agree tbh. Like this is weird. I’m not paying for Kevin Cador or anyone else’s app. I am paying for Justin Nemeth’s website and official apps.

@kraftynic

Hence, excuse me repeating myself, introduce tiers. If they are determined to have third party features, let those that want them pay extra and those that want just Trakt features pay less

Yup. This Partner Program is not a good reason for a price increase on everyone.

@kcador

Again, Trakt is not funding the other apps in the Partner Program.

So how are you made whole by the loss of any Premium subscribers who are also VIP subscribers?

@kcador

including referral links who give access to revenue sharing → sharing, not funding

And there it is. This is a distinction without a difference. The revenue that is shared is used to fund development.

@kcador

Just know that we are all trying our best here

You seem cool but other than you I don’t know that. I truly don’t. Little communication after promising more, backtracking on promises, no awareness of their own T&C, etc does not demonstrate this.

@kcador

Tiered access is not that easy and I’m pretty sure if we ask all users who would want that, they would all choose a different bundle of things, leading to frustration (again).

Not easy is not an excuse for not trying at all and it would have led to significantly less frustration.

From the past year with all this pricing drama it’s become pretty clear that the main use case a lot of people have for Trakt are lists and filtering. Having a tier that covers that would satisfy a lot of people.

@kcador

The other solution is to give you more for the price you get to balance it the other way, that’s what we are trying to do here but will take time.

The other other solution is to actually have these features ready and to not make promises after breaking a big one.

@kcador

What disrespect exactly?
I answered on the grandfathering, I know Justin wasn’t dishonest at the time he said what he said. Things just changed.

You can’t be serious. Yeah, he said what he said then months later what he said became not true out of nowhere. How is that not dishonesty?

And you actually didn’t answer on the grandfathering. You just said it happened and moved on.

[kraftynic (Nicola Krawczyk)]

@kcador

I value transparency but hear me out, it takes time to reply to everybody. You are a lot of users for a rather small team. We can’t do that all the time but yes, more is better.

It takes time to reply? So this long from the current disruption is how long for the team to address even one member in the various pricing posts?

@kcador

I don’t think we can say Trakt is dishonest. Yes, Justin said old plans would be grandfathered and at that time, he was honest. I guess you are talking about that

Of course it’s dishonesty. It was backed many a time by support (including Justin) here in these forums, long after Justin stated it. He also said Watchlist for free users would be higher than other lists - took that back as well. After the free user change up they promised more transparency, better communication - we got neither. They tried to break their own T&C’s, for crying out loud!

@kcador

Tiered access is not that easy and I’m pretty sure if we ask all users who would want that, they would all choose a different bundle of things, leading to frustration (again). The best would be to pay for exactly what you use (because that is the root of the problem, the perception that you pay for something you don’t use that much) but that’s a model that almost always fails (at least for this type of service). The other solution is to give you more for the price you get to balance it the other way, that’s what we are trying to do here but will take time

Aw, diddums for Trakt that, frustration. Thousands of other companies have done it and succeeded. The other solution is, NOT to give us more us more by inflating the price. Could you imagine if Prime suddenly quadrupled (or more, I see Trakt upping it again very soon) what they charged you and said “but we’re giving you a bunch of extra channels (they have 100+ bolt on channels) you don’t really want”?

[SuperDave10 (SuperDave)]

@kcador

Tiered access is not that easy and I’m pretty sure if we ask all users who would want that, they would all choose a different bundle of things, leading to frustration (again). The best would be to pay for exactly what you use (because that is the root of the problem, the perception that you pay for something you don’t use that much) but that’s a model that almost always fails (at least for this type of service). The other solution is to give you more for the price you get to balance it the other way, that’s what we are trying to do here but will take time.

Tiered pricing is NOT that dificult for a reasonably competent programer. Just reading this I can think of 3 fairly easy solutions. It was sugested that the different pricing for the different grandfathering was SO difficult. BS. Again a competent programer could handle that in their sleep.

[otakunet21]

so happy to see you here, the rippple app is amazing. when i got into the testflight beta it gave me premium access but i think i went back to the regular version so I could do the lifetime sub and then switch back to testflight beta. felt bad not paying for it.

I still prefer to use the official Trakt app but i always keep rippple installed and open it from time to time or use it to check in on a show and use the feature to have it auto complete the watch history up to the episode I’ve marked.

I’m sure you’ll do great things here at Trakt.

How did you get into app development in the first place and what made you start with your tracking apps like rippple?

[WereCatf]

Eh, so far I am not hearing anything that’d make me trust Trakt again or want to sign up for VIP at twice the price I paid previously when I have no use for any new features.

[kcador (Kevin Cador)]

@kraftynic

I still don’t see why there has to be an all or nothing.

I wouldn’t say all or nothing. You have many options. Free, VIP, third-party apps that may give you perks for free, a fee or as a bundle.

@kraftynic

Make third party apps a bolt on for those, like you, that appreciate and use them but let there be room for those that use Trakt as it was meant to be in the beginning and still is - track, collate, share, review, etc.

Exactly this! It is the case: apps are part of the ecosystem. All apps can be used or not with or without Trakt VIP thanks to the Public API. Nobody is forcing anybody to use third-party apps and Trakt is not funding any of them.
Focus on Core Features of Trakt is in the work.

[kcador (Kevin Cador)]

@kraftynic

I know we have all ambushed you, but there is a reason for that - you ARE alone.

I know it feels like it from the outside but the Trakt team is awesome and behind me on this.

@kraftynic

Not one other employee of Trakt has invited themselves to the discussion, be it to defend things or apologise or explain.

We hear you! We need to better explain. Defend of apologies is something else we shouldn’t have to do.

@kraftynic

If we try to engage them directly our comments get removed and if we tag them we are ignored.

This is not a pattern. It happened, yes, but it’s not like it’s for everything. I have my own community I manage and there is a lot of things I see in here that I wouldn’t like to see in a forum about my product. Some moderation is in place and I don’t think it is too much.

@kraftynic

None of our suggestions are listened to.

This is just not true

@kraftynic

So sadly, I think you will be on your lonesome for a good bit of the foreseeable

That’s okay if I am but it doesn’t feel like it.

[stutger]

Congrats on joining the Trakt crew! I hope you get to contribute in making the service better (and perhaps even address some of the grievances of late )

I’m one of the few who really enjoy Trakt Lite and it’s simplicity and I would love to see it bit more regular updates on it’s development.

That’s all for me, wish u the best of luck at Trakt!

[kraftynic (Nicola Krawczyk)]

@kcador

This is just not true

Of course it is or Trakt wouldn’t be in the mess it is now. Many suggestion were given when they clamped down on free features, not one was listened to or acted on, they just went their own sweet merry way regardless of consequence.

@kcador

I wouldn’t say all or nothing. You have many options. Free, VIP, third-party apps that may give you perks for free, a fee or as a bundle

That comment wasn’t aimed at you, however it seems true. If you want basic Trakt features like the free had (more lists, larger lists) but took away to try and force more VIP sign ups, then you HAVE to take everything. And of course they fund these 3rd party applications! Younify must cost them a fortune (even though it seems crap and barely works right), but why should all VIPs shoulder the burden rather than just those that use it? You yourself are getting kickback through “revenue sharing” as you called it - ie funding.

@kcador

We hear you! We need to better explain. Defend of apologies is something else we shouldn’t have to do

Hear us? Trakt is deaf eared. And perhaps defend is too strong a word, but an HONEST explanation should be a must, not a post so full of nonsense about infrastructure doubling in the last year - Younify did that. Not a post promising new features that never come to pass, and if they do add features it’s never from feature requests, always what TRAKT wants not it USERS. And definitely apologise when promises are broken.

@kcador

I know it feels like it from the outside but the Trakt team is awesome and behind me on this

Course they are, always hiding behind something or someone, never out in the front

[kcador (Kevin Cador)]

@kraftynic

So if Trakt doesn’t fund third party apps in their partner program what do you get out of it, other than a job, with salary?

My case is different and I’ve explained.

• Rippple is my app (7+ years in the making) that is part of the Partner Program, not funded by Trakt,
• My job is something else, I’m paid by Trakt but not to do Rippple, to be a Product Manager for all Trakt is: the data, the APIs, the multiple official and third-party front-ends, the tracking, the discovering, the collecting, the sharing,…

@kraftynic

What does Younify get out of it.

This is something else. I call it an integration. I don’t know the exact deal but yes, Younify gets paid for their business. Like JustWatch and other providers. The Partner Program and those kind integrations into the Core service are not the same.

@kraftynic

Why do they expect EVERY VIP member to “fund” these external parties when they don’t use them?

It is not the case. Only if you go through the third-party, you partly fund that third-party if they are part of the Program. If you don’t use them, you don’t fund.

[SnowyBoy (Snowman)]

I’d be invoicing in advance or asking for payment up front for your services mate, you come in at time of conflict to say the least, it appears you’re also dealing with people with questionable ethics, best of luck on your new journey, ( I hope you don’t need it), the " TRACK" record is not real positive though. Your enthusiasm is admirable and I hope you can maintain it.

[kraftynic (Nicola Krawczyk)]

@kcador

It is not the case. Only if you go through the third-party, you partly fund that third-party if they are part of the Program. If you don’t use them, you don’t fund

I call BS, sorry. Whether or not you use it, your Trakt VIP still funds it. I’d happily accept VIP at $40 dollars (a fair increase) if it was guaranteed Trakt systems and features only, and not pay a penny towards funding external parties. I want core TRAKT features to soar, not anything else.

And again…
“including referral links who give access to revenue sharing → sharing, not funding”

Semantics

[kcador (Kevin Cador)]

@iDavide94

You’re missing the key point — and the key point is: third parties.

Not missing it. But there is a misunderstanding on the type of third parties and the fact you think they are funded by your VIP subscription.

@iDavide94

There are plenty of VIP features I don’t use, but the issue isn’t spending my money on features developed by Trakt that I might not use — it’s spending my money on features developed by third parties.

This is not the case!

@iDavide94

To be as clear as possible:

Using my money to improve Trakt’s services: okay.
Using my money to improve third-party services: not okay.

Agreed! And this is exactly what is happening.

@iDavide94

This is just a subtle play on words — the name changes, but the substance stays the same.

I disagree. Funding means Trakt would use your money for something you are not interested in. Revenue Sharing means part of the revenue is shared in a win-win situation because a user is actively choosing and actively engaging with the app.

@iDavide94

I seriously doubt that Trakt took money out of its own pocket — like cutting salaries — to “share” profits out of goodwill, as some sort of charitable act. Come on, this is clearly funding aimed at promoting Trakt VIP: you, the third-party developer, steer users toward Trakt VIP by showing them they can use your app for free; I, Trakt, pay you more than they ever would have directly.

You are saying Trakt is funding, I’m saying Trakt is sharing the revenue via referral links.
Let’s take a step back maybe: Trakt doesn’t have a Marketing team. The Public API and third-party developers have always been a way for Trakt to acquire new users. Here, with the program, some apps will be rewarded with a part of the revenue of the users that came through those apps. This is a pretty standard and interesting model for Trakt, the third party developers and the users.

@iDavide94

But let’s go ahead and call it “sharing” — the substance doesn’t change. I had already canceled my Trakt VIP subscription after years, switching to competing services, and this latest move only reinforces — significantly — the sense that my money has been wasted.

I’m sorry you feel like this, but you are free to go somewhere else that better suits you.

@iDavide94

I want to make it clear that this is not a criticism directed at you or your app (which I have used in the past), but rather a criticism of Trakt, the way it is investing its funds, and of all the poor decisions made in recent months that have markedly worsened the service.

Noted! And thanks for your feedback!

[kcador (Kevin Cador)]

Agreed already, transparency and be better at communication is key!

[iDavide94 (Davide)]

@kcador

I disagree. Funding means Trakt would use your money for something you are not interested in. Revenue Sharing means part of the revenue is shared in a win-win situation because a user is actively choosing and actively engaging with the app.

Okay… these apps aren’t being funded with my VIP subscription money, the revenue is just being “shared” — conveniently enough — from my VIP subscription

From a user’s perspective, call it whatever you like, but the perception stays the same: my money isn’t going to Trakt, it’s going to third parties outside of Trakt. And that feels like a waste of money, especially when those funds could — and should — be used to address many other important shortcomings. If that waste comes right after a price doubling, it only makes things worse.

If I want to use a third-party client, I’ll pay for it myself — if I choose to. Trakt shouldn’t be “sharing” my money with external developers.

Take the Prime Video example: Amazon would never share my subscription fee with third parties, especially not after doubling it, just to add third-party content to their platform. If I want third-party content on their service, I add it myself and pay for it separately.

There’s clearly a conflict of interest in your responses: you benefit both as a Trakt employee and as a third-party developer through this new “revenue sharing” program. I completely understand that, but it’s also clear that you’re not seeing things from a user’s point of view — because even when you call it “sharing,” it still feels like a waste of money that reduces the value of the service.

I hope I’ve made my point clearer.

[neilcgardner]

This is almost an impossible conversation to have without someone sharing confidential commercial information, which I’m sure Trakt won’t do. So, here’s an illustration of a ‘possible’ revenue sharing model between Trakt and Ripple.

Trakt could agree to pay Ripple 20¢ for each Trakt VIP member that connects their account to Ripple, and 20¢ for each month thereafter where they remain connected. Therefore only Trakt VIP members that are actively using Ripple have any of there VIP subscription contribute to Ripple. Other VIPs are not contributing.

This model would seem to address your concerns? Only those using Ripple with Trakt generate any revenue share, those that don’t aren’t generating any contribution. If zero Trakt VIPs used Ripple, then zero revenue would be shared.

[kraftynic (Nicola Krawczyk)]

@kcador

Funding means Trakt would use your money for something you are not interested in.

Exactly the point many are making!